“I think one of the fascinating things I remember about coming out to my friends years later, one of my closest friends said to me, 'God, you must hate us.' And I thought that was so interesting, and I was like, I don’t. I guess I was a part of it”

MARY ARMSTRONG: This is Mary Armstrong, Dana Professor of Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies and English at Lafayette College. It’s October 17, 2022, and I’m very happy to welcome Brian Hutchison, class of 1993, to the Queer Archives Project interview. Welcome Brian.

BRIAN HUTCHISON: Thank you, it’s nice to be here.

MA: It’s really great to have you. Thanks for making the time. So, we’ll start with the nuts and bolts that we always begin with, I’m going to ask you to state your name and confirm that your participation is voluntary and that you’ve given your informed consent.

BH: My name is Brian Hutchison, and yes, this is voluntary and I give my informed consent.

MA: Marvelous. Thank you. That’s fantastic if you can say that back. (laughter) I hate to spring that on people, but --

BH: Memorization is my thing.

MA: Absolutely, and I can see that you are on top of your game. We’ve talked about this a little before the interview, but I will remind you that I’ll ask you a series of prompts, [00:01:00] you can decline to ask any question you don’t want to address, but even more so, elaborate on questions or say other things. So, don’t feel that the interview has a shape that is coming from me. It really is your story and the whole purpose is to get your story and my questions aren’t really like questions, they’re more like prompts to try to jog your memory. Feel free to add additional comments or follow up in writing if you think you forgot something. The interview is very relaxed and it most of all belongs to you, and we’re excited to hear what you have to say. Personal pronouns and name, do you prefer me to use?

BH: Brian, I’m he/him.

MA: Marvelous. And these are a couple of short questions. How do you define yourself as a member of the Lafayette community, your relationship to Lafayette?

BH: My relationship to Lafayette is very good. I still have so many [00:02:00] good friends, close friends, that we’re in a constant text message chain that I was even contributing to as I walked into the building just now. There’s several of us that are in touch, especially my group of friends from mostly my year. And we’ve remained really close. So, I consider it an amazing place where I spent four good years, but also have kept in touch with lifelong friends. So, it feels like a very friendly place and lots of good memories for me.

MA: Yeah, that’s wonderful. The feeling of community continues for you as an alum.

BH: Yes.

MA: That’s marvelous. So, your major was?

BH: English.

MA: You were an English major, and as an English professor I want to give a shout out for that.

BH: Right on. I’m all for English majors.

MA: Me too. So, your class years were straight through from [00:03:00] ’89 to ’93?

BH: Right. I did take a little more than a semester in Australia, in Sydney, first semester of my junior year.

MA: Wow, that’s marvelous. That sounds like an exciting time.

BH: It was.

MA: And how do you identify as a member of the LGBTQ community?

BH: I identify as gay. That’s probably the first thing that comes to my mind, and I think someone from my generation is getting more used to saying those things or being asked those things. And in an academic environment it feels different than in real life. But that’s the first thing that comes to mind in terms of identifying.

MA: Great. And we ask that too because it’s a way that we learn to speak about you correctly when we write about the interview. How do you professionally describe yourself?

BH: Professionally.

MA: That could be [00:04:00] employment, vocation, however you want to describe it.

BH: Yeah, I describe myself as an actor, but I think that’s become more of a multi-hyphenate over the last couple years. So, actor, producer, narrator, creator. I created a fiction podcast based on a real event from my life in a gay relationship I was in, and some series of events that occurred during that time several years ago. So, that kind of increased my multi-hyphenate status, you know, so I think actor, narrator, producer, photographer. That’s how I sort of think of myself.

MA: That’s marvelous. And you can sort of as you describe that you can see your creativity growing and expanding into different fields, which is a beautiful thing.

BH: Thank you. One hopes.

MA: No, it’s wonderful to see and exciting because I will say as someone who spends their time as an educator [00:05:00] what we hope is to have people go out into the world and keep growing. And the way you described that it seems like that’s exactly what you’re doing. That’s pretty exciting. Anything to add about who you are that you would just like to say?

BH: Well, you know, at this point I’m proud to say I’m a husband, which is interesting and something definitely when I was at Lafayette or in those years following didn’t know if that would be a possibility.

MA: Congratulations.

BH: Thank you. So, my husband and I have been together for about 14 years, and we’ve been married for about four years. So, that is something I feel very strongly about and I’m very honestly pleased and proud that that has happened during my lifetime, before it got too late. Something that I can enjoy, something that I can feel is coming at a vital time in my life. [00:06:00] So, that’s definitely something, feeling like I’m part of a family. No kids, but a dog and a cat, and so it does feel like that is my personal life is something that I can talk about in ways now that I would not have been able to a few years ago.

MA: And it’s funny how historical that is, because I think people around our age, it’s just amazing to be able to see. And sometimes for younger folks to be able to say, and sometimes for younger folks, oh that’s a thing, you know, you can get married. But it seems just spectacularly amazing.

BH: Yeah, well to also be my age and to not take it for granted too. Because I do think younger people, there is that sense that it’s available and that’s something you can grow up with and be possible out in the world and that was not the case growing up for me. So, it is something to come to midway through my life that is interesting to be alive at this time, [00:07:00] and around when I can enjoy it and the benefits of that.

MA: That’s great. It’s a great thing that you chose to add that, too. It’s wonderful to hear. So, thanks for all that. I’m shifting a little bit to going back in time and thinking about your time at Lafayette. Very generically, how was the situation on campus, broadly defined, for people who identified as LGBTQ? You can talk about this any way that makes sense to you, if it was safe, if it was visible, if people were out, if there were pockets of LGBTQ life, however you want to describe it in those four years.

BH: Not good. And that’s just my impression of what life must’ve been like. I mean, because I wasn’t nearly as out at that time, and looking back I would’ve described myself more as sort of bisexual during my time. [00:08:00] It was very, the people that I knew here who were identifying as gay, honestly can maybe think of one person. I can’t even think of another. The first person that comes to mind, a guy who was in my class. And so, that wasn’t without mockery, wasn’t without a lot of negative comments, there was a whole lot of teasing, maybe not too indirectly, but there was a sense that it was not okay to be gay here. And at probably other places like this back in, that was the climate in the ’80s and that was certainly where I came from in Pittsburgh, you know, coming to Lafayette wasn’t a very open place in terms of [00:09:00] being different, in any way really. It was a very homogenous sort of campus, most people came from similar sort of backgrounds, so there was this being part of a group meant sort of being part of the sameness. Within fraternities and sororities, which was very prevalent when I was here. So, my impression, my memory is just not good in terms of being open to it and people I feel like now, the one guy in my class I did know who was gay, I’m going to change that to two people that I knew who were either gay or bisexual, very difficult probably for them. And I realize now how bold that was on a campus like this to admit that, to live openly at that time. It took a lot of strength [00:10:00] to do that.

MA: They were out. People knew, it wasn’t like it was a rumor or so you sort of saw --

BH: Yeah, one of them definitely was maybe more bisexual, so that was sort of an intrigue. I mean, you didn’t really know what it all was at that time. People just didn’t talk about that either, it wasn’t discussed. People didn’t use the word queer, people didn’t use the word queer in any positive context. So, you know, I think that as good a time as I had here, and as close as I am to my friends who are all straight, by the way, it’s fascinating to me that I enjoyed my time here as much as I did. Because there was that other thing going on that was in me, but I think because I was able to throw myself into many activities here, many creative outlets, it didn’t sort of, you know, [00:11:00] make my time here sad or dark or really lonely or really isolated. But then again, thinking back I can remember times when that did come up. And so, yeah, I think my attitude about the guys that were able to be gay back then is much different now than it would have been then.

MA: Yes, I can see that. And if you can think of one or only two people in the entire college, it just says volumes, and it probably instructed people who might be questioning or thinking, not to question or think too much. To keep it in the background.

BH: Yes. It just wasn’t discussed. It wasn’t really an option, it was just assumed that you were not gay.

MA: Yes. You know, you’re mentioning the time frame makes me think The Princeton Review listed Lafayette as the most homophobic, or the place not to be out in the early ’90s. That would have [00:12:00] been exactly -- was that a topic on campus or did that just come up later or, because I’m thinking that was sort of the bullseye of your time here.

BH: It’s the bullseye of my time here, I couldn’t agree with it more, but then again, I don’t remember it ever being discussed. I do remember, sadly when I think about it, I think fraternities were racist, I think they were sexist, and I think they were homophobic. Mine was. As much as I loved the people within it, I think all are good people and have good hearts, I think one of the fascinating things I remember about coming out to my friends years later, one of my closest friends said to me, “God, you must hate us.” And I thought that was so interesting, and I was like, I don’t. I guess I was a part of it, I was there, I didn’t stand up for anything, I didn’t say you shouldn’t say that. [00:13:00] I was complicit to a point, I’m not going to blame myself, but I do feel like there was a sense years later of reckoning and recognizing I stood by as I listened to stuff happening, whether it was homophobic, misogynistic, sexist, racist. I mean, those things did come up and I think it’s unfortunate, but I do know, from living this life I’ve lived now at 51 years old, that people do evolve, and I think there is a group mentality and a group think and there are things people say to be funny, to think that they’re being funny, to be part of a group, and then there’s evolution and there’s a different sense of who people really are. [00:14:00] And that’s why I’ve been able to remain such good friends with those guys.

MA: That’s really so interesting and sophisticated, the way you describe it. There’s also growing up, too, right?

BH: Absolutely. I mean, my own and everyone else’s, and I think today things are much different in terms of being cancelled for saying certain things. What is unacceptable today is much different than what was unacceptable when I was in school. And I only have a tolerance for it because I, like I said, I’m on the other side of it and I know where people’s hearts lie. Most all of them. And when I would hear comments that were homophobic, I don’t think I would ever join into it, but, like I said, it was interesting years later to hear [00:15:00] from one of my close friends, who’s so empathetic, you know, you must hate us. And I think that was that sense of that group, you must hate what we said or how we must have made you feel at that time. And that was so far from what I thought, but I understood what he meant.

MA: Absolutely. And it’s when people are young, and everybody’s trying to figure out who they are, if you can fit in, because you had this nice description of how homogenous it was, and you said I passed into that homogeneity very authentically, on many levels. And so, I survived just beautifully in many ways.

BH: And that’s a good way of putting it. Because I do think my experience here was, there was an authenticity in it, I was already sort of in route to being an actor and part of the core being an actor professionally [00:16:00] is to be your authentic self, and to come from a place of honesty, and to create truth through imaginary circumstances. So, it is all about your truth, and it was ultimately, in my coming out years later, it really had that at its root, but my time here, I don’t know if it was inauthentic, it’s just where I was at the time. And so, I did fit into this group and it was something that I loved in many ways. But I also probably didn’t examine it until I was a little older, kind of where I really fit into it and why I wanted to be part of that.

MA: Right. Which is a developmental process that you’re describing.

BH: Yes, you can’t rush it, or you couldn’t, or I didn’t.

MA: Yes, absolutely. And I think sometimes the challenge of the college years is that you’re supposed to have an identity, but you’re really finding one, or learning about yourself, and that takes a long time [00:17:00] and often, if you are, say a person is naturally cisgendered, they fit in to their gender role, they have interests that match what they’re doing at the college, those things, their life makes sense in a lot of ways. And a lot of people don’t just identify as LGBTQ like they wake up one morning and know, it’s a process.

BH: It’s a process. It was absolutely a process for me, but I do understand why it was considered, I would say Lafayette was among the more homophobic places. I don’t know if it was the most, I don’t think there was a lot of taunting, I don’t remember any signs being put up or anyone actually having any hate crimes while I was here. But I think it’s those kind of, what we call now, microaggressions, kind of things, that were probably very much a part of people’s experience. So, I can imagine that went on at similar colleges, I don’t want to disparage Lafayette too much, [00:18:00] I know that those things are always a little bit someone’s opinion and maybe it’s a little bit skewed about it being the most homophobic, but I will say that is within my experience.

MA: Absolutely. It’s a great nuanced description, and also Lafayette was very much a product of its time, at that time, and very much -- it sounds almost like one of those conspiracy of silence places, where it’s not like things were happening, it’s that nothing was said and nothing could be said. There were a few social signals sent, a few mocking words, a few jokes, so everybody understands it’s not okay, but it’s more like a quiet. There’s no space to come out.

BH: There was no space for it, that’s a really great way of putting it. There didn’t feel like there was the space, there didn’t feel like there was the support.

MA: That makes a lot of sense. Probably Lafayette deserved it and didn’t deserve it, to be number one, at the same time. Probably could’ve had a lot of company. [00:19:00]

BH: And truly, some of the professors I had who I would have imagined were gay and maybe out, I don’t think they were, I guess. They weren’t. And so, that’s what’s interesting, too, is even terms of who would be the mentors or role models or a sense of where’s my tribe of people, and you would think that in an academic environment there were maybe more professors who were open or comfortable. And so, it was sort of systemic, I don’t know if that’s the right word for it, it was from kind of within. There wasn’t that sense of openness I’m sure you’ve experienced here.

MA: I could absolutely see that. At every level, the quiet is enforced, you can feel it. And so, when you come here and you need mentors and the faculty, the faculty aren’t out either, you have kind of an entire --

BH: And if you set up your life where that is who you are, if you identify [00:20:00] as we say now as being LGBTQ or beyond, I feel like there was a safety or a protection in not discussing it. So, that sense of a professor might be gay was maybe discussed, but no one was comfortable and open talking about it certainly.

MA: And you know, the way you describe it is very interesting, because there are many different ways that an institution can not be particularly welcoming, for lack of a better word, to LGBTQ people, and what you’re sort of describing is the way that Lafayette was not welcoming. And there are other ways, there’s taunting, there’s policies that forbid, there’s all kinds of ways, so what makes an institution not welcoming is particular to every institution. And you’re describing something hard to describe, [00:21:00] which is silence, absence of spaces, just no conversations, no out faculty, no particular groups, so it’s almost like a big gap, as opposed to something active. Which in other homophobic institutions could do it a really different way. That gets at a lot of what was particular to Lafayette in this era. It’s a way of being not welcoming.

BH: It’s a way of being not welcoming, and even a bubble within a bubble, being a theater person in this community, there was no theater major, I did a lot of plays while I was here, it was nice to be a big fish in a small pond and get to work a lot and get to do some really great stuff that would send me on the trajectory of what my career is. And I met great people doing theater, and they were all different than my friends from my fraternity, or from my [00:22:00] experience here at Lafayette. But I remember seeing photos of a play that some of the seniors had done, as maybe a sophomore, that they had done a couple years earlier, and I was like, who’s that person, who’s this person, and they would sort of describe that show and who the people were, and I remember they described one of the guys as now gay. He’s now gay and he lives in [redacted by QAP reviewer], and I was like that’s so interesting, it’s just an interesting thing that there was this sense of like that’s what happened to him once he left here, he’s gay and I don’t know what that -- it was a fascinating thing to remember because clearly he wasn’t comfortable doing it here, and then as soon as he left he was okay with it. But it was interesting the way that his friends from that play he was in, that show, his theater community, described him. It was sort of the first thing that was said about him [00:23:00] and I remember that 30 some years later, because again, it was not discussed much, and that was one person who I knew of, and didn’t even know, while I was here who had then come out once he left.

MA: It was so quiet, that that tiny thing seems momentous and memorable to you. That tiny speck on the empty --

BH: And then it was such a big deal that it needed to be discussed, or that it was just one in I don’t know how many thousand people, couple thousand people, this is what happened to him. And the culture of Lafayette’s own particular way of being silent about it or being not supportive, even within students, even within theater students, even within women theater students. It’s like fascinating to witness that.

MA: Yes, it created its own version of [00:24:00] --

BH: Yes, and at the time too, it was not too unusual. It’s looking back now that I’m thinking that’s so crazy and that’s really how things have probably changed, hopefully.

MA: Yes, oh, no doubt about it. And speaking of theater, as you sort of reference your academic time here, I wonder if you could talk more about that -- the classes, how it felt as a community, I mean your relationship to your own sort of identity was in flux, was there any LGBTQ content in the classes you took, or did it feel welcoming? Did that come up at all? Any way you want to approach it, I’m just wondering if that played into your student life, which was of course all your activities and all you’re as well as a theater person.

BH: No, it didn’t feel welcoming. No, I don’t remember any LGBT content. I mean I think it was, like much of literature, [00:25:00] implied. I mean, I think we didn’t do any Tennessee Williams plays while I was here, but I love him and I love his plays. Edward Alby. It’s fascinating what’s underneath so much of that, and what is implied, and what is written as code. But we didn’t really do any of that while I was here. And so, it wasn’t a part of my experience. We didn’t have much choice in what was done, certainly, in terms of plays. And then, in theater, in terms of the theater classes, it was more like intro to theater or history of theater, I guess. You know, I remember the textbooks being starting with Greek theater and going through more modern theater, and modern American. And that was interesting as sort of an education, but I don’t [00:26:00] remember taking any acting classes. I don’t think they existed when I was here.

MA: Theater was completely embedded in the English department?

BH: Yes. And so, there were just plays that people auditioned for, and maybe a group of people that I knew that did many of the plays, but it was open to everybody. And so, no, there wasn’t a focus on that at all. But I don’t remember there being a focus on anything gay or queer at the time.

MA: So, it was of a piece of what you’re describing otherwise?

BH: Yes, it was very much in similar to kind of what was being offered and what was being shown to the public at the Williams Center, was definitely not LGBT fare.

MA: Right, or even Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.

BH: No, he might have done that later, but no, it’s true, I don’t remember doing any roles [00:27:00] while I was here where there was really that underneath or even coded within the material. So, yeah, my experience doing plays here was good, because I learned a lot and I was able to play some leading roles for the first time and get a sense of what that was like in front of people. But it didn’t really play into one’s sexuality or my awareness of that, or it being highlighted or discussed in any way.

MA: Okay, it’s interesting because in some interviews, even earlier alums than yourself, some people have described, and this is almost a stereotype or classic description of theater and the arts being a place where they, as a person being LGBTQ identified, thought they might be gay, thought they might be lesbian, that was the place they went because there was sort of likeminded souls. It wasn’t that they were dating, it’s just that they felt [00:28:00] freer and felt like they could be themselves, even though they weren’t necessarily being out.

BH: That’s a great way of putting it, and that’s true. And there was a safety, and there was a kindness, and there was a safer place, a more congenial place than the rest of the campus. And that is true, probably today, too, about the people that are interested in theater. It’s often people who feel like outsiders for one way or another, and it’s not all people who happen to be gay, it’s just more of a sense of maybe being different, and cool, and interesting in a way that’s outside of the box. And so, that did exist at Lafayette. And I was happy to have that as a sort of counterpoint to my time with my fraternity and my friends here. But I will say, I think what drew me to it, to continue to do it, it was [00:29:00] a safe place to maybe exercise emotion and feelings and convey different parts of myself that was maybe not possible in real life. It wasn’t possible to show rage, or sadness, or depth of despair, or anger, or elation, or whatever it was -- there was always you know in real life this sense of keeping things level. At least there was for me, and there was a sense about what was okay. And, like maybe I don’t know if it’s the right word, but like normal, I mean that’s how people were.

MA: Norms. 

BH: Yes, there were norms, there were social mores. And I think that was very much a part of it, too, for me to give -- for whatever reason, sexuality included -- a way to let some of that [00:30:00] out. Let some of that steam out in a way.

MA: Oh, that’s super interesting. So, that sort of safe boundary breaking, or boundary pressuring and pushing and crossing that theater is so freeing, the arts are so freeing, because of that. They give you a chance.

BH: Gives you a chance to do that and to show that you have that within you. I mean, that’s probably where I first realized oh I’m kind of good at this. Because I think I was kind of mild mannered in life, and laid back, and on stage I was able to do things that were outside of myself, but very much within myself, but it was a safe place to explore those emotions and sensibilities and ideas within me that were maybe not acceptable on the quad.

MA: That makes so much sense. And you can see it aligning a little bit with when you said norms, like normal cisgendered masculinity, it doesn’t do that [00:31:00] so theater gives you permission to go places and understand yourself better.

BH: Masculinity, for sure. Absolutely. That’s a great way of putting it, and it’s something that definitely happened before I was at Lafayette, and I can think back to even years before just knowing that it was an okay place to explore that and remain in that sort of masculine role in my real life, you know, off the stage.

MA: You make an argument for the value of the arts in everybody’s life.

BH: Oh, good.

MA: You really do. I mean, because you can see everybody has a self to go find, doesn’t matter if they’re gay or not, and the arts help you do that if you’re willing to.

BH: Yes, I was always so encouraging. And I would always think it’s cool when people who are clearly straight guys wanted to do a play. I just thought it was really interesting, I was like good for you. And I still do, I mean I still know people who want to do plays [00:32:00] on the side of whatever their work is, or I know doctors who have taken improv classes, and I’m always so encouraging because I just think that’s so cool to me because that is different than my experience. And it sort of shifts my narrative on why people do that, and I love when people want to explore this other side of them and are willing to try it under those sort of circumstances of being within a play or within a role.

MA: It takes some courage, right, I mean it goes against that stereotype of masculinity of like being contained.

BH: Yes, and that’s what I like about it too. I think it shows when I saw it in men who are clearly straight, I liked that they were kind of turning that on its head and sort of in our very safe way of messing with gender norms.

MA: It’s almost like when you talk about theater, it’s not the story, I love theater because there were obviously queer people [00:33:00] all around me, or I love theater because I had a gay mentor, or I love theater because -- you love theater because it’s theater, and it’s like what it let you try and be and do, like for itself. It’s just inherent magic. Pretty awesome.

BH: Exactly. Because there’s the product of it, the show, that people see, and then there’s being in it, which is a totally different experience. You don’t experience what the audience is experiencing, I experience something from within me of what it feels to do it, and that’s what drove me to kind of want to do it to begin with when I was young. And through to Lafayette, and then grad school, and New York. And so, yes, it was always fascinating to me to see when -- and I feel like it always gave theater sort of a, again, from my own stereotypes or my own sensibility about what theater was, I thought that it gave theater a good name. I liked when straight guys did it because I felt like [00:34:00] it made it more appealing to people who would want to come and see their friends in a show.

MA: Absolutely. Value to everybody, it’s just not a niche for certain kinds of people. That’s pretty marvelous. And you contrast it to, you said you were in a fraternity? So, we always ask about Greek life. Not everybody is, but many people are because especially the power of fraternities in particular historically at Lafayette.

BH: Oh my god, yes. Very powerful.

MA: Very, very powerful. I didn’t go to a school with fraternities so when I came here, I was like oh, okay, that’s a lot of social power that the Greek life system has, particularly for fraternities. You were in one, you had a good experience, so you contrast that a little with theater, so I was interested to hear more about that.

BH: So, the opposite of theater. Not so welcoming. I mean, look, it was fun, [00:35:00] it was mostly joyous. What I loved about it was there were so many different personalities that were a part of this club, and so there was a lot of raucous behavior, a lot of fun. Our fraternity ended up getting kicked off campus, for I don’t know how long.

MA: What fraternity were you in?

BH: Phi Delta Theta, which is the Scott Building, maybe? Something right up there, it’s very nice.

MA: Was it kicked off campus while you were in it?

BH: Yes, I was in it. For alcohol consumption and things like that. So, it was really fun and it did give people a sense of belonging and a sense of purpose here and a sense of being part of something. And I did like that, because, like I’ve said, I’m still good friends with many of those people. And those ended up being my close friends here, whom I lived with and am still friends with. [00:36:00] So, I loved it in many ways. I was always part of it to a point, and it was fun my freshman and maybe sophomore year, and then I started to realize I’m not sure if I’m in the right place. And I think that was Lafayette, that was the fraternity, that was who I am, where I am. And as much as I still enjoyed the rest of my time here, there was probably a time midway through where I questioned if I belonged here, and with those guys even. And I was also like part of it and I was also an observer. And that’s who I am as an actor, too. I mean, you sort of, in life one of the things I do as an actor is I observe and report back. Like a journalist would, like an anthropologist or -- there is this sense of observing human behavior, [00:37:00] and being part of it but also kind of taking it in and then using that later on stage or in a part or logging it as some character or some idea. So, what I observed, what I kind of was part of, was fascinating in terms of my development as a human being. I’m glad I have it because just in terms of what I’m capable of doing as an actor, what I was part of, what I witnessed, who I was around, were experiences I would not have gotten just by being a theater kid in a conservatory. And I think that was valuable to me, in terms of my evolution and in terms of what I want to be and what I want to take from that, and also, what I’m clearly not. And you know, living is trial and error and evolution, so I think I wanted to be a part of this thing so much and then it was midway through realizing [00:38:00] oh I’m not like this.

MA: Like I want to belong, oh I belong this is great, and then oh maybe this isn’t quite the fit I thought it was.

BH: Maybe it’s not quite the fit in terms of who I’m going to be, or who I want to be, or who I have a kernel of a thought now about who I might be on the planet for the rest of my time here. And so, I realized what can I take from this experience and what do I want to reject. And you know, it’s so easy to kind of disparage fraternities and sororities, too, and I can do that easily, but I also know that it’s part of who I am today is because I was part of that organization. And sort of saw the whole thing, and saw what it was about to be a part [00:39:00] of rowdy, like strong, athletic, masculine group of men who lived together for four years.

MA: And your perspective on that is so interesting, too, because you have that strong beginning as an insider, and then your own capacities and your training as someone in theater lets you be an insider outsider. Which is you can still be comfortable and still fit, but you also see it now as something you learned as experience sticks to you as an actor or person who is collecting thoughts and ways of being and ways of thinking and talking that they become part of the way you learn about people. So, you didn’t feel like a total outsider, you felt someone who was there but also something else.

BH: Yes, and those things are always valuable in life. I mean, unless you really regret where you were and realize that was a horrible decision or that was a terrible school for me, you do learn and you take things away, [00:40:00] things that you need, things that you want to take with you, people that you want to take with you, parts of them. So, you know, there was good and bad to it for sure, but yet I really choose to mostly remember what was positive about it. And like I said, the fact that there’s so much more sensitivity in the individuals as they get older, maybe as they have families of their own, maybe as they have kids of their own who are struggling with their own issues, or just becoming more empathetic adults and realizing like, wow that was a different time. I think that’s an interesting thing to observe.

MA: Yes, it is generous and also very fair of you to let people grow up and let them evolve because that’s what we all do. I think very few of us would go back to the person emotionally, intellectually, or psychologically we were when we were 20. We wouldn’t make that choice but our [00:41:00] friends wouldn’t either and everybody deserves a chance to get better, move on and grow up a little bit. You mentioned athletic, were you in any athletics at all?

BH: I wasn’t at all. And most of those guys, or many of them, were. But no, that wasn’t really a part of my experience here at all.

MA: It sounds like you were very busy with other extracurriculars.

BH: I really was.

MA: Really committed to theater.

BH: Yes, and what I remember most about my time here just was like when I felt the best, when I felt the most in that flow state that I seek still as I get older in this business, is I would take classes during the day, obviously, in this building, and then I remember leaving a class and then running over to a fraternity nearby where our band was practicing, I was sort of a singer in a rock band here, or a couple [00:42:00] of them, and we would practice for a couple hours, and that was joyful and fun and amazing, and then I would run and eat something really quick, and then go to rehearsal at the Williams Center and be done with that by like 10 at night. And then go home and there was just this sense of being creatively fulfilled before there was money involved or business involved, or you know all of the encumbrances of real life. But to be in an academic environment and have it be so creative in a place that wasn’t fully creative or filled with creative people, you know, I found them. We found each other. And it was definitely appreciated. We had a lot of people that came to see our music, maybe the plays not so much, but I felt fully engaged by the time I figured out how to do that here.

MA: There’s a purity to that description that it’s for you and about you and your joy [00:43:00] and your development. I mean it is what college is supposed to be in many, many ways.

BH: Yes. And there are more creative places to do that, more open places, more places that have more outlets or more clubs or more likeminded people, creative people. But in my journey, I found that here, and then as I moved into the world.

MA: Yes, and it was satisfying for you. Tell me about the rock band. You were in a rock band? That’s fun.

BH: In a rock band, yes. It was fun. I was in a musical here and I think maybe I sang in that and so I guess some people asked me to be in their band when I was maybe a sophomore or junior, and did that for a year, and then eventually with some other guys who were in a different band, sort of got together. So, it was a small community of musicians, and basically everybody just kind of found each other and still [00:44:00] friendly with those guys today, too.

MA: Isn’t that nice. What was the band called?

BH: Pink Melon Joy.

MA: Okay, excellent.

BH: It’s very exciting, we’re going to play on the quad tonight at seven -- no, we’re not. But, it was fun.

MA: That’s really wonderful. That’s really great. Let’s see, what haven’t we covered? We talked about academics, the curriculum, the cocurricular was built right into everything, so that’s something we talked about. The social scene was Greek life, athletics, other organizations, the rock band, sounds like you were very busy with theater, if you were other clubs or anything, there’s not to forget.

BH: No other clubs. Theater took up a lot of time. The band was fun, it took up a good amount of time. Friends. But yes, I don’t think I was a part of any other clubs.

MA: I mean, I love that description [00:45:00] of your day. It was so wonderful, you go to class, you go to rock band, you eat dinner, you go and you’re in a play and you’re working with theater, and it’s really quite touching, because it’s so much what I hope people will have. It sounds like a full, rich experience with people.

BH: I do too. Yes, at its best it was that. And I think I realized when it wasn’t that and it was too based in kind of what my friends at the fraternity were doing that I didn’t feel fully a part of as the group mentality. That’s when I kind of realized I had to find my thing here fully and engage with that. And that’s when it was at its best it was that, it was full and there was a rich sort of campus life that I managed to find, for sure.

MA: That’s great you found it, because I think sometimes people go through and they don’t hit that moment, find their people, find their thing and they can be very isolated. Because as you say, it wasn’t a big community but it was there and you found each other, and it doesn’t always happen but it happened for you which is really wonderful.

BH: It did. [00:46:00] And that also expanded the group of friends, because the more people I worked with whether it was a few people from theater, or a few people from the band who were in a different fraternity or maybe independent, it was kind of great at that point, I think, even the guys in the fraternity sort of things got more relaxed and I think everybody sort of started hanging out a little bit with different groups of people, and it wasn’t so much a part of this tribe of people that you needed to show allegiance to when you’re rushing or joining a fraternity, which is pretty intense in the beginning. And then I think you have the rest of your experience here, which was a little more open, or more branching out.

MA: Relaxes a little bit. Great description. We always ask the question, were there any moments on campus, and it sounds like the answer might be no the way you’ve described the culture, but just to ask, where issues [00:47:00] around LGBTQ came forward? Was there a speaker, was there anything, you knew only two people, sounds like maybe not so much of a likelihood, but sometimes there’s an event in front of Farinon, something in the newspaper, something somebody remembers?

BH: Yes. I remember when the AIDS quilt came to the gym.

MA: Wonderful, wow.

BH: Yes, that was intense and beautiful and sad and amazing. And I do remember people showing the proper respect to that, for sure. I mean I think that probably anybody who sees that still, but at the time, it’s so profound and so deeply upsetting, unsettling, moving, to see [00:48:00] --

MA: Once you saw it you can never forget it. It’s so powerful.

BH: You can never forget it. I will never forget seeing certain people who I was friends with or friendly with who were I think able to actually maybe understand maybe for the first time what that was. The profundity of it, the expanse of that loss, which it’s a big gym, and there was a lot of panels, but it’s only a small part of that quilt, always. And that was incredibly powerful for me, too, but I also was maybe more aware of that than some other people would have been. You can’t prepare for that, you know.

MA: No, when you encounter that it will change you, [00:49:00] certainly. It’s a very powerful thing. The scope you describe, the extent of the loss, people are usually struck by it. I’m glad that was the effect here.

BH: I’m glad, too. I mean, I wonder how much of the campus actually went to see it, I don’t know, but I do remember going, and I remember being struck by how moved people were. Because it’s impossible not to be. But also, it was at a time when that was still really before the drugs came out that were able to let people live their lives, so I think in 1992 or whenever it was here, it was still a death sentence. People were still dying and I think there was such a message there that this was something that is still here and there’s not much support for.

MA: I’d forgotten that that would have been coincident with your time [00:50:00] on campus.

BH: I don’t know, has it come back ever?

MA: It came back this April.

BH: Oh, how was that?

MA: I was actually on sabbatical, I was in Berlin at the time. But everything I hear is that it was just as powerful and amazing as ever. And it’s return in April, for those of us that lived in those times, it’s amazing to think of course AIDS is still out there, it’s a problem, it hits communities, it’s a global issue and the crisis is not over, but the antiretrovirals and everything that’s come along that you mentioned has changed it for many people, and to think all these years later it’s a different thing when the quilt comes. But at the same time, it’s the same thing, because you do remember and people are very moved by it. And from everything I hear it was that kind of experience. I don’t think it could ever be anything else, because it is so powerful. Thanks for mentioning that and reminding us that was during this point. So, you have any sense of how the climate has changed as we [00:51:00] sort of come to today?

BH: I don’t, yet. Because I haven’t experienced the students today, yet, just not sure where the school is with all of it. But I like that there’s a theater program, I like that there’s a Lafayette College Queer Archives Project with a rainbow leopard.

MA: I’m so glad you like that leopard.

BH: I do, I mean, it’s moving for me to see that just because Lafayette’s been part of my life, my dad went here, too, you know, and so, it was in my family. And just those images for so long have been part of my life, lifelong. And so, to see it moving in a direction that is more gay positive, queer positive, forward, however we put that these days, I like that [00:52:00] that’s happening. I think it’s important, and I think that if Lafayette can do that, any school can. So, I hope that that’s happening. I hope people feel comfortable. I hope there are clubs. I hope there’s support. And I hope that when people get in, when they interview here, they can say that they’re gay. It just wasn’t even an option. And that’s funny, too. I don’t even know how an interviewer would have taken that if someone would have said that at the time. If you would have been discouraged from coming, saying there aren’t a lot of people like you, but now I hope that people seemingly in high school, or many of them, are comfortable with sexuality, or not identifying themselves to the point where they’re open. And so, I think that that’s a good step forward. But I haven’t witnessed it really much, yet on the campus, so I don’t know.

MA: When a student comes to interview, and if they mention [00:53:00] that they’re gay or lesbian or queer to an interviewer, believe it or not today the interviewer will tell them about Lavender Lane, which is LGBTQ+ housing. Which opened as of this year with our amazing queer students in there. The college has changed a good deal. There’s always more work to do, but the way you describe it as moving in the right direction, I think is pretty accurate to my experience as well.

BH: How many students live there?

MA: I think it’s something like 30. It’s a good-sized house. I believe it’s a former fraternity house, I’m not sure which, though. I’m not too versed on the former fraternity houses, but it’s a good-sized building and they had an informational fest over there earlier this year, and Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies went over there, because we have some queer studies 33 classes, and of course the Queer Archives Project is there, and students can get mugs with rainbow leopards, and you know, it’s nice to feel the climate [00:54:00] change. It’s changed radically I would say, nothing’s perfect but nothing’s perfect as we know. But I think it’s moving in the right direction. Anything else you’d like to add?

BH: I’m not sure. I think I’m personally pleased I was able to talk for even this long about my experience of what that was like at Lafayette, because I think my concern was just that there’s a short answer, which was like it didn’t exist here. But it did exist, it was just different. It was not spoken about, it was people hiding, it was people not being comfortable. I realize now, too, the one person I know who is trans from my time here [00:55:00] lived next door to me [redacted by QAP reviewer] when I was a freshman, and that’s interesting and surprising. And my first thought is good, good for you for figuring that out. You know, so, those things I think it’s moving to me to be back here and know that things are moving in the right direction, but also there was this whole group of people when I was here who were not comfortable yet. And I do remember now someone from my class reached out to me when they saw “The Boys in the Band” and came out to me, and said I didn’t know you were gay when you were there, and you didn’t know I was gay, but we knew each other peripherally. And so, it’s just an interesting thing to get a message from other people from here similarly to my [00:56:00] high school, also. People who reach out because there’s some visibility with what I do and sort of acknowledge who they are, and it’s kind of a nice thing. And I think that’s happened with Lafayette maybe two or three people have reached out about that. So, I certainly do know that people from my time here are gay, but I know at the time it was as hard for them as it was for me or anybody else.

MA: That’s such an interesting comment. I hadn’t put the two and two together that as a person in the public eye, leads a public life because of what you do in many ways, people would see you and they would know about you, because you are public persona, and they might come out to you. You’re there and so they can see you there and they can say: “Me, too.” And look at you and say “Hey Brian, that was also me because “The Boys in the Band,” the play, the movie, those things would put you and then your story and then [00:57:00] connect you to other people. And so, you sort of know all the way around the circle people in your class, but because of that and your work.

BH: Or it’s happened with high school and my time here, I’m remembering also now as we talk about it, people who I knew maybe peripherally who tell me that their kid identifies as gay, or that their kid is bisexual. And just want to acknowledge it and want to kind of let me know, and I think that’s sweet, and I think it’s nice. I think it’s great that there is that sense of a continuum, in a way, of wanting to sort of reach out to someone that they know who dealt with this in their life, or someone that they know from way back who may have empathy or may understand something that maybe their friends aren’t dealing with.

MA: The silence that you sort of mapped your time [00:58:00] as silence, but obviously you were living and doing things and having relationships, now the story is silence no more. And people reaching out to you because you have the courage as a public figure to be out, then that kid is seeing you and they’re not alone.

BH: Right. It’s permission for people to be truthful, and be honest, and sort of admit their truth or something about themselves or their family or that they may not have acknowledged to someone else.

MA: And you’re doing very important work, then.

BH: Oh, thanks.

MA: I think that’s true. Thank you, Brian Hutchison, for this very wonderful interview.

BH: Right on, thank you.

END OF AUDIO FILE